Broken Chains – Part 4: Cain and Abel (2nd Rebuttal)

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Here is another follow-up conversation with the person I replied to yesterday…

“My personal experience…”

Key word here…. Your personal experience.  You don’t get to use your emotions… Your personal experience as evidence simply because there are millions of other people with different feelings and different experiences.  Should we take the emotions and personal experiences of someone in a mental ward as evidence that there are truly aliens out in space trying to beam signals into our heads? After all… They probably feel just as sure of themselves and their “personal experiences” as you do.  What makes them crazy and you rational?

“I have read many book and most well written ones don’t waste your time with things that you could deduce.”

Except you’re claiming the Bible is an instruction manual, not a novel.  You don’t get to make up your own verses when you’re expecting people to follow this book like a manual for life.  You know what would happen if you were operating heavy machinery or baking a cake if you just added your own instructions that weren’t included in the originals? You might get lucky, but most likely you’d fail miserably.

“You will have to show me where in the bible where it said, incest, rape, and slavery was okay.”

Gladly!

  1. Incest: Adam and Eve either had to sleep with their children, or their children had to sleep with each other (or both).  Given the story that the Bible tells, there are no other options.  Abraham was also married to his sister Sarah, whom he had children with.  Noah’s children and grandchildren would inevitably have had to have slept with each other in order to re-populate the earth after its destruction.  Christian apologists typically come up with a wide variety of reasons to explain this away but again… It usually amounts to them adding things to the scripture that simply aren’t there.  (For instance; God MUST have created other people, and that’s where Cain found a wife! Except the Bible never says that… Not once…)  
  2. Rape:  This is the easiest one.  The Bible (especially the old testament) is filled with horrific examples of god not only permitting rape, but commanding it.  
    1. Judges 21:10-24 – The men of Israel destroyed Jabesh-Gilead, killed all of the men, and took the women as their wives after killing all of their families.  All with God’s blessing.
    2. Numbers 31:7-18 – The men of Israel destroyed the Midianites, killed all of the men and non-virgins, then took all of the virgins for themselves.  All at the command of God and Moses.  
    3. Deuteronomy 20:10-14 – This command of God tells the Israelites how they are to treat their enemies.  It includes a provision that allows the Israelites to take the women and children of their enemies and “enjoy” them as “plunder.”  
    4. Deuteronomy 22:28-29 – God orders rape victims to marry their rapists.  Surely god knew that a woman who has been raped is a victim and that forcing her to marry the man who violated her would be an awful thing to do, right?
    5. Deuteronomy 22:23-24 – God demands a rape-victim be put to death if she doesn’t “cry out.”  This is okay to you?
    6. 2 Samuel 12:11-14 – Here it says god delivers rape victims up to their rapists to be raped in order to punish David.  How is allowing innocent women to be raped punishing David? What about the women? Do they not matter to god?
    7. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 – God once again tells Israelite soldiers that it’s okay for them to take the women of conquered villages to rape.  
    8. Judges 5:30 – God says the Israelite men can take “a damsel or two” to rape.
    9. Exodus 21:7-11 (This pairs with slavery) – God states it’s okay for a man to sell his daughter into sex slavery.  He even adds a stipulation that the man she’s sold to doesn’t have to free her after 6 years.  
    10. Zechariah 14:1-2 – God states he will help the enemies of Israel destroy Jerusalem and rape “their” women.  
  3. Slavery:
    1. “Slavery in the bible is nothing more than servitude slavery and after 7 years you are free even if your debt was not paid in full.”  
      1. You’re only partially right here.  These conditions only apply to Hebrew slaves.  All other slaves are slaves in exactly the way it’s normally implied.  
    2. Leviticus 25:44-46However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you.  You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land.  You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. (No 7 year stipulation is stated or even implied here.)  
    3. Exodus 21:2-6 – Here it’s stated a Hebrew slave is to be freed after 7 years, but they must leave without their family unless they willingly choose to stay in slavery.  So in other words, a male can be forced into permanent slavery as long as you keep their family hostage!
    4. Exodus 21:20-21 – Beating slaves is okay.  They’re just property after all! Just don’t hit them hard enough to kill them!
    5. Ephesians 6:5, 1 Timothy 6:1-2, Luke 12:47-48  – Even the New Testament approves of slavery! The verses in Luke involve Jesus himself stating it’s okay to beat slaves.  The entire book of Philemon is the story of Paul catching an escaped slave and returning him to his master.  

“Morality is God’s creation and does not change. Men change with time but God does not.”

So then it is your opinion that rape, slavery, and incest are all perfectly moral? All of those things have been commanded or sanctioned by god multiple times in the Bible (as I’ve given ample evidence for.)  

“The bible report incidents as they happens and that does not mean that God sanction the evil that men do.”

Except I’ve given you multiple examples to show that, according to the Bible, god has approved or even commanded immoral things multiple times.  Most of the time it’s women that suffer though, so who cares! According to the Bible women are nothing more than cattle anyway! Right? (I hope you see that was sarcasm…) 

“God has not changed his stance on morality.”

So then, again… You’re perfectly fine with rape, slavery, murder, and incest? Tell me… Since god “doesn’t change” do you abstain from eating shellfish and wearing mixed fabrics? Those things were called “abominations” in the Old Testament.  If god doesn’t change, they still should be, right? Also, women should stay quiet in church, right? (After all… They’re just property according to the Bible!)

“God created a perfect world in the first chapter of Genesis.”

Except… Even according to you (and the Bible,) he didn’t create a “perfect” world.  Even before Adam and Eve, his creation rebelled and had to be thrown into a hell which he created to punish his little “mistakes.” (i.e. Satan and the other angels.)  Adam and Eve also sinned, so… Yeah… Definitely not “perfect.”  Surely a perfect all-knowing, all-powerful god, capable of literally anything, could have come up with a way to create things that wouldn’t sin even with their free will.  Right?  Unless you’re saying god can’t do anything? You can’t have it both ways.  Either he can and didn’t, he simply isn’t all-powerful and all-knowing after all, or he just doesn’t exist.  

“God knew this was going to happen so He hatched a plan to redeemed human race. He sent his Son to die for us. To take our place because whoever breaks God’s law must die…”

Surely an all-wise, all-powerful god as capable of coming up with a plan that didn’t include pain and suffering? Right?  I’m not all-wise nor all-powerful and I can think of at least five…

“If there is a better way God would have chosen it…”

There are countless better ways.  If god is real, then he chose the worst way possible simply because he enjoys watching humans suffer.  That would make him a sadist (or someone who enjoys inflicting pain).

“Am saying that we are in a battle zone, look around you evil abounds everywhere.”

And who’s fault is that?  Oh… That’s right…

“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”  Isaiah 45:7

“Innocence is being butchered everywhere you turn to.”

And yet if god is real, he sits back and does literally nothing to stop it.

“The end is very near.”

You do realize that practically all Christians since the beginning of Christianity have been making false claims about “the end.”  Right?  Not a single one has come to pass.  Not even the one Jesus made.  Not one…

For reference, here is the false prophecy Jesus made:

“For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and will then repay every man according to his deeds. Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.“ (Matthew 16: 27, 28)

All of the Disciples “tasted death” and Jesus still hasn’t returned… What’s the deal?

“When I read my bible and come across those verses or events that you mentioned above, I see a loving God trying to work with a fallen human race.”

How in the world can anyone in their right mind claim that the verses I listed showing rape, incest, slavery, and murder are the words of a “loving god???”  I really don’t get it…

“Look around you bad things happen every day to God people and God feels every bit of it.”

“Throughout the history of humankind, the thrust of evil have been stemmed by good men.”

And yet, god could have easily stepped in and stopped the evil if he actually wanted to. By his inaction, he participates in and perpetuates evil and the harming of innocents.

“He has to let sin play its hand.”

Why?  Is god not all powerful and all knowing?  As I’ve asked before… If god exists and is, in fact, all-powerful, why can’t he come up with a way to save mankind without all of the suffering and death?  If I, a mere human, can come up with the question and possible solutions, then surely an all-powerful god could do the same or better, right?

When god destroyed the world in the flood (if we want to pretend for a second that that actually happened…) Then there were thousands, if not millions, of innocent children that he senselessly murdered.  Besides that, if god stepped in and destroyed evil as the Bible claims, does that mean “freedom of choice” and “free will” really don’t matter after all? If, back then, he could so easily violate freedom of choice and free will to destroy the world, then why can’t he destroy all of the evil in the world now without harming the innocent?  If he can’t, then does that mean he isn’t all-powerful after all?

“No one had to die if they don’t want to die.”

You use the common excuse of the violent criminal to excuse the horrific actions of a violent deity.  For instance; rapists typically use victim blaming to excuse their crimes all the time.  For instance; “If she didn’t want to be raped she shouldn’t have dressed so provocatively!” As do thieves;  “If they didn’t want their store to get broken into, they should have paid for better security!” Victim blaming doesn’t work for humans, and it certainly doesn’t work for a supposedly perfect deity who should be held to a higher standard.  

“If the requirement was not bluntly stated, is it was implied…”

No!!! You don’t get to “imply” anything when it comes to what “God” supposedly said. Why is that so hard for you to understand?  If you can just “imply” (a.k.a. “make up”) whatever you want, then literally anyone can make up anything they want!  I could, right now, say “god says you have to give me $10,000 or else burn in hell!” and pretend it says that “in between the lines” of some verse.  

If god exists, if he is all-wise and all-knowing, and if he wanted something said, then he should have said it.  An all-wise / all-knowing god wouldn’t have left it up to his followers to come up with on their own thousands of years later.  Also, if he is all-powerful and never-changing then he could easily set the record straight right this instant by calling down from the heavens with an audible “Eh… No guys… That’s not right…” or “Hey! Great job guys! You’re really doing what I want you to!” This run-around doesn’t make sense! 

“When God said, “If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” If Cain had no idea what God was requiring of him, he would have objected immediately. Obviously he knew the requirement and disobeyed it.”

See? You’re reading between the lines.  You’re not taking the text at face value.  You’re adding in details and making things up to make a horrible story more palatable to you.  You can’t fathom a god that would be so cruel as to just expect a primitive creature to read his mind, so you make up additions to make god seem nicer to you.  You’re making up your own religion.  If you’re going to do that, why bother with the Bible at all?  Just sit down, write your own rules, and be done with it.  But don’t, for a second, pretend “god said” because he didn’t.  You said.

“Cain rejected God and God rejected his offering. Simple period!”

No… That’s a story you’ve made up, not the story that is given.  If Cain was “rebelling” as you claim, why would he bother bringing a sacrifice at all?  Why wouldn’t he just flip god the middle finger (so to speak) and be done with it?

“God knows that He has the heart of innocent people that are being killed left and right.”

And yet, again… He does literally nothing to help.  It’s not much of a loving god that throws down a book thousands of years ago then checks out for the rest of time. Is it?

“God is doing everything in his power to give them another chance…”

Is he though? I can think of countless other ways that a being with infinite power could step in and help change people or save the innocent.  If he truly exists, then why can’t he?

“I have seen rapist turn their life around, murderer, you name it and they have renounce their evil ways and come to God. That is the grace and mercy of God.”

So much for their victims though.  Where was god’s “grace and mercy” when the innocent victims were being raped and murdered?  Why didn’t he step in to save them?

“Satan wants us to accuse God and say if God is just why does He allow pain and suffering.”

It’s a good question.  If god created everything, then he also created pain, suffering, and evil.  If he is all powerful and all wise, then he could stop it, yet he doesn’t. Why? Why did he even create it in the first place?  And don’t give me that “it’s just the absence of god” nonsense, because that doesn’t stack up.  If god is ever-present, like most Christians claim, then there is no place where god is “absent.”  If there is, then he’s not ever-present.

“I am drawn to the suffering soul; I want to help them heal and that is God working in me.”

No, that is you naively giving the credit for your kindness to a being that isn’t there; or if he is there, doesn’t care and so leaves the job of helping the needy to others.  That’s like a kid doing all of her and her friend’s homework, then giving the friend that did nothing all the credit when they turn it in.

“Even in a cancer patient the glory of God show through, mercy and grace and benevolence comes through.”

You’ve got to be joking, right?  “Mercy, grace, and benevolence” would be to simply… You know… Cure the cancer? Or how about not creating cancer at all?

“Empathy comes across and if that’s not God’s character I don’t know what that is.”

Again… That is you giving credit for your kindness and the kindness of others to a being who (if he exists) doesn’t care enough to bother with any real action.  If he’s there, is he too powerless to do anything real or substantial? Surely god sticking his hand down from the clouds to cure cancer would convince someone to be a better person and to be kinder to people.  Surely god shouting down from heaven “Hey! Stop being a jerk!” would turn an evil person’s life around before he could hurt anyone?

“Thank you for hearing God out.”

God hasn’t spoken here.  You have spoken, and I have to say, it’s pretty gosh-darned arrogant of you to assume you literally speak for god when all you’ve done is taken an old story written by men thousands of years ago, and added your own modern flare to it.  The only thing that makes you different than the Pope or Joe ISIS over in the Middle East is the specific religion you’ve chosen.  You all claim you speak for god, you all use your religion to control others (though some of you are more violent about it), and you’re all the same when it comes to how certain you are that you’re the only ones who have it right.

Tell me… Which of the millions of religious people who are certain god speaks to them, from the thousands of different religions in the world  should we believe?  How do we know who is crazy and who god is actually speaking to, when you’re all saying god speaks to you? Can you answer that without giving a version of “Because of my personal experience” ? Because literally every religious person, throughout all time, has had personal experiences that tell them they’re right.  That’s why personal experiences don’t work very well as evidence.  Everyone’s got them.  

James Garcia – 9/13/2016  

Broken Chains- Part 3: Cain and Abel (A Rebuttal)

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I received several replies to my Cain and Abel piece from someone and because they were long and my own replies got pretty lengthy, I felt a real post was required.  Here is my rebuttal to their rebuttal (her comments in red, scripture in blue, my responses in black.)

“God is too wise to be mistaken.”

Who says? God? Did god actually tell you that or are you assuming it because others have told you that’s the case? Tell me… If I were to tell you that I am “too wise to be mistaken”, would you automatically believe it? Or would you expect me to prove myself with actions rather than simple words?  If the Bible is to be believed, then there are a variety of instances when god has been wrong.  For instance… Throughout the Bible both incest, rape, and slavery are all said to be okay, but then god changed his mind about all of that?  How can rape, incest, and slavery be okay according to god in the past, but not now? Could it be because morality isn’t god’s creation and instead is based on what society judges to be moral?  Surely if an all powerful, all knowing god created morality it would be forever unchanging.  Right? 

Even within the most conservative of churches the concept of morality has changed and evolved over time, so you can’t simply claim that morality has always been the same, because it hasn’t.  Not one single church still practices morality these days as it was practiced in Jesus’s time.  Not one.  If they did, those that lead the church would most likely be thrown in jail or into a mental institution.

Besides that… How in the world could it be considered “wise” to sacrifice yourself in some sort of strange blood pact to “save” people when you could just as easily say “I forgive you.”  You can’t say “because sin requires death” because according to Christians, god makes all the rules! If god makes all the rules, then he could just as easily have said “All that sin requires to be forgiven is for me to say I forgive you” and that would have been that.  

Then, of course, there is the entire issue of god’s creation (man) being flawed anyway.  If god is “too wise to be mistaken” then how in the world could he have created a broken world? Why would the destruction of the entire planet have been necessary? Why would the need for “salvation” have even been in the picture?

“God is too good to be unwise.”

Again… Who says?  If I walked around wiping out entire civilizations, allowing my friends to rape all the women and young girls, setting wild bears on children, and having my followers sacrifice their children, would you still consider me good simply because I say so? Because if the Bible is to be believed, then god does literally all of those things I listed.  Why are human beings held to higher standards than god when it comes to what is considered good?  Why is god allowed to murder men, women, and children on a stomach-churning scale and still be considered good in your eyes, but if a normal person did that you’d demand they be executed? How can god permit rape and slavery and still be considered good in your eyes, yet if a normal person did that you’d demand they be thrown in jail?  If you truly believe the Bible, then how are all of the atrocities commanded or enacted by god okay with you?  How can you stomach it? How can you sit there and with a straight face say “god is good, god is love” when, if the story is to be believed, so many horrific things have been done by him and for him by his followers (with his blessing)?

“When we don’t understand Love, we don’t understand Him.”

Except the fact of the matter is, there are so many people on this earth that understand love far better than the god of the Bible supposedly understands it.  God is supposed to be the parent-of-all-parents, but what kind of loving parent would let his or her child die of cancer or AIDS? What kind of parent would willingly stand by and let his or her child be held in a basement to be raped by some sicko for years? What kind of parent would let his or her children die of starvation?  I’m not god, and I wouldn’t even let a stranger’s child suffer through that if I could do something to prevent it.  I wouldn’t even let my worst enemy suffer that, yet, if he’s real, then god does this every… single… day… and people like you still insist on claiming that he is the ultimate representation of love.  If that’s what real love is, then I don’t want it! I’ll take my “bastardized” version of love where I… Strange concept here… Actually care about other people and do my best to help them when they’re in need.  You can talk about “free-will” and try and use that as an excuse, but where is the free-will of the baby of a drug addict who also became addicted while in the womb? Where is the free-will of a rape victim? Of someone with cancer? Of someone who had their entire family killed in a freak car accident?

“You are right about God chiding [Abel] but you fail to see that God must be specific in order for him to reject Cain’s offering. God said to Cain, “If you do right [your] offering would be accepted” indicating that there is a right way. If you could offer anything, then God refuses it, then would be unjust.”

Except where does the Bible specify that god laid out any requirements or even asked for an offering?  Hint: It doesn’t.  Here are the verses in question in case you doubt me:

“Now Abel kept flocks, and Cain worked the soil.  In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord. And Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock. The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering, but on Cain and his offering he did not look with favor.” (Genesis 4:3-5)

In your own words… God must be specific!  Otherwise he is unjust; and nowhere is it stated, or even implied, that god laid out some “How do give a proper sacrifice” plan for Cain and Abel to follow.  All it says is that Abel kept flocks and Cain worked the soil.  As the story goes, they then, out of their desire to please god, brought him an offering out of the work that they both did.  God rejected Cain’s offering and praised Abel’s in front of Cain.  What kind of loving parent would do this? I don’t have children of my own, but I know that if my artist daughter brought me a picture she painted while my son baked me a cupcake, I’m not going to heap praise on my daughter’s artwork while slapping my son’s cupcake out of his hand while telling him what an awful job he did.  They both had their own individual skills, and they both brought a gift in love.  Why treat one with disfavor?  What good could that possibly serve?  You can try and claim that surely god told them the rules, but that isn’t what is stated in the story.  The story, as presented, shows us a cruel god playing two brothers against each other for no reason.  

“God is just in all his dealing with us, he doesn’t [suppress] anybody. You are a witness to that. He has done no evil to you.”

If it is within your power to help someone in need and refuse, then you’re guilty by inaction.  If you see someone brutally murdering a child and you could have stopped them, then that child’s blood is on your hands as well.  If god exists, he may not have done any evil to me with his own hands, but he allowed quite a bit of evil to be done to me and to others; evil that, if he truly existed, he easily could have stopped.  You can’t claim it’s all because of “free will” either, because that simply doesn’t pan out.   Drug addiction, alcoholism, STDs…  You can attribute all of those things to “free will” if you want, but you can’t say that cancer, or a baby with AIDS, or a classroom full of children being shot dead, are because of their own free will.  Where does their free will come into the picture? Is the life or innocence of a child truly worth so much less than the free will of a murderer or a rapist? How does allowing a single, loving mother of four to die of cancer affect anyone’s free will?  

“You are right about God refusing his offering but you failed to acknowledge that there must have been a right way or right offering for God to reject Cain’s offering.”

I don’t acknowledge this because it simply isn’t there.  You are implying conditions onto the situation that simply aren’t stated, and if god exists and is truly wise, then he would have stated those conditions simply to make sure someone like me didn’t question it.  After all, he is supposed to be all-knowing, right?  If that’s true, he would know someone like me would have this question at some point and would have included an explanation in his “Holy Word” wouldn’t he?

“My point in the first post is that love requires freedom of choice.”

Again… Where is the freedom of choice in cancer? Where is the freedom of choice for the child who is molested by an adult? Where is the freedom of choice for a mother who sees her child blown to bits by a bomb in a war-torn country? If god is truly all-powerful then he could easily pluck a child out of danger without violating anyone’s freedom of choice.  The “freedom of choice” excuse is a cop-out, nothing more.  The ultimate horror is to have an innocent child who happened to be raised in the “wrong” religion, getting raped and murdered, only to wake up in Hell immediately.  Because “god is love”? Right? Nothing says “love” like an innocent victim being condemned to an eternity of the worst torture imaginable! 

“Once you understand this simple principle, with the help of the Holy Spirit, you can [read] the Bible and understand it. Keep searching the scripture.”


I understand the Bible perfectly fine.  The problem here isn’t my understanding.  The problem here is with you and those like you.  You see a verse that tells a horror story and to make it a little less terrifying you add details to make the bitter pill that is the Bible go down easier.  You see a story of an all-powerful / all-knowing being playing a game with the lives of two brothers for no reason? You add some “off-screen” scene to make it seem less terrible.  You see that same all-powerful / all-knowing being playing a sick, psychological game with his most loyal servant by demanding he sacrifice his own son, then stopping him last-minute, and to make it more palatable you make up some amazing “lesson” we’re all supposed to have learned that simply wasn’t given in the text. 

“The bible requires you to dig for the truth…”

That is exactly why I gave up Christianity.   I dug and dug for much of my teenage and adult life and the truth that I found in the Bible is just too horrific for me to believe it serves a good or loving purpose.  No loving being would use the Bible as it’s instruction guide.  

“A lamb sacrifice was what God asked for.”

God asked for no such thing.  God was supposedly given a gift by his two creations that wanted to show him they loved him and instead of accepting them graciously, he praised one and shunned the other, for no good reason.

“It represented a Savior that was promised…”

That is simply a detail you’ve added to make the story less terrible to your conscience.  Without that little detail added hundreds of years after the fact, the god presented in Genesis looks kind of like a sadist.  

“…by faith Abel offered an excellent sacrifice.”

No… Abel just got lucky that he was the one Adam picked him to work the flocks while Cain  was picked to tend the crops.  It was luck-of-the-draw, nothing more.  

“Hey, I will love it if we could study together. Do you know that hell does not burn for ever?”

If you want to present your rebuttals, I’ll be happy to reply.  But the Bible and Christianity have caused too much pain for me for one lifetime. At this point, my only purpose in studying the Bible is to help show others what a terrible book it actually is.  If that offends you, then I apologize, but you might want to find another friend to study with.  In spite of the differences in our beliefs, I really do wish you the best.  Good luck with your own search for truth. 

Regards,

 

James