Reddit, LGBT People, and Donald Trump

trump

I had a discussion on Reddit (thread found here), with a Lesbian woman who claimed to be a supporter of Donald Trump and attempted to argue that he would be the “best choice for LGBT people.”  The following are some of her statements, with my responses.  She has since deleted her comments, so I can’t link to the originals, but here are some that I had to respond to because they were outrageous or offensive (or outrageously offensive).  

“People label “persecution” on things like others denying service.”

Just because we’re not being murdered in the streets (which of course, we are…) doesn’t mean it’s not persecution, so you can keep your sarcastic quotation marks.  In a country where we supposedly have equal protection under the law, allowing one group of people to be discriminated against in the economy that we’ve all helped build, based on an immutable characteristic, is discrimination. Period.  Every American should be able to take part in the public sector without having to worry about whether or not a store will accept them or not.  You shouldn’t have to worry about public ridicule and humiliation because you want to buy a cake.  

An African American should be able to go into any public business and buy whatever products or services that business provides without fear of being turned away because of the color of their skin.  On the same note, any gay person should be able to go into any public business without having to fear they will be turned away because of who they happen to love. Nobody should have to wonder if they’re going to have to drive 2 or 3 hours out of their way just to buy something that is sold in a store across the street, because the owner of the store across the street happens to be a bigot.  That’s not how our country is supposed to work, and that’s certainly not the type of country I want to live in.  

If people behind the counter don’t want to serve every person within the general public who enters their store, is not causing a disruption, and just wants to buy whatever goods or services that business provides, then they should simply not open a business.  There are plenty of jobs out there where you don’t have to serve the public.  If you don’t want to serve gay people, or black people, or Jews, or Muslims… Don’t apply for a business license. Don’t sign a contract with the government that says you won’t discriminate.  It’s that simple.

“I find it ridiculous people believe this nation will go against one of its core values.”

Then you really haven’t been paying attention to the history of our country.  Check out segregation.  Check out the internment of innocent Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor. Check out slavery.  Check out the slaughter of the American Indians.  All of those things went against our supposed “values”, yet they’re all things that happened anyway.  

“…Politicians aren’t going to make such drastic changes against the American citizens will. Putting gays in jail is not what the American general populace wants. I’ve discussed why they wouldn’t go against the populations wish already.”

And you’re wrong.  Where was the outrage when innocent Japanese Americans were ripped from their homes and thrown into internment camps? Many of them lost everything they had! As for now, if the Republican-controlled Congress has shown us anything the last 8 years, it’s that they don’t give a shit about what the general populace wants.  They’ve gone against the majority of the American people multiple times, from trying to overturn the ACA again… and again… and again… and again… To shutting down the government, to all of the Benghazi / email nonsense.  The fact that you still seem to think they won’t shows you’re literally not paying any attention to the real world.

SO do I think they’ll step in to help LGBT people if states start passing laws to arrest them or enforcing laws they already have on the books? Not really.  Do I think the American people will be outraged? Maybe?  Do I think they’ll be outraged enough to protest in the streets to help us? Those are two different questions, and the answer to the second is a definite “no.”  Where’s the outrage for the members of the African-American community, who are being shot dead in the street like animals by certain police officers who are supposed to be protecting them? Why isn’t the populace rising up to  help them when they’re arrested, beat up, and in many cases killed, for minor offenses like running a red light or selling cigarettes?  Answer: It’s non-existent.  The majority of American people simply don’t care enough about issues that don’t affect them directly.  

“You’re right. Trump/Pence could allow businesses to not serve us. I don’t care about that. Why would I want to deal with a business that is forced to serve me anyway?”

You should care about that.  You say you’re not naive, but then you go on to show how you absolutely are naive over and over again.  Do you seriously know nothing about our history?  How well did the whole “White’s only”, “Irish need not apply”, “We don’t serve Jews” garbage work in the past? Hint: It didn’t.  You had entire groups of people that were suffering because they were being denied jobs, kicked off of buses, kicked out of restaurants, and generally left out of an economy that they helped to build.  As the American people have clearly shown throughout our history, they are more than willing to single groups of people out as long as they’re given permission to do so.  You literally have people trying to do so now; so if you think that’s all in the past, then as I’ve said, you’re naive.  

“Being gay means dealing with people who hate you. The government isn’t going to take that away.”

Of course they’re not.  I don’t expect the government to make people like me.  I don’t care if people like me. But we have laws in place that will at the very least make sure that we have a fair shot in the economy that our tax dollars help to build.  Joe-Schmoe at Melissa’s Cake Shop can hate me all he wants, but if Joe-Schmoe wants to open a business and receive the benefits from the government that come with it, then they damned well better sell me a cake just like they would anyone else.  My sexuality has nothing to do with their religious beliefs and it certainly has nothing to do with the cake I’m trying to buy.  

“I’m very interested in these specific moments Trump has voiced hatred. Can you please post some specifics so I can read into them?”

This is, by far, the easiest of your ridiculous comments to rebut.  All I have to do is type “racist / bigoted / sexist Donald Trump quotes” and I’ll be provided with a plethora of information.  It takes willful ignorance to not see them! Here are just a few examples:

Donald Trump disrespecting women:

Ariana Huffington is unattractive, both inside and out. I fully understand why her former husband left her for a man – he made a good decision.”

“You know, it really doesn’t matter what the media write as long as you’ve got a young, and beautiful, piece of ass.”

“If I were running ‘The View’, I’d fire Rosie O’Donnell. I mean, I’d look at her right in that fat, ugly face of hers, I’d say ‘Rosie, you’re fired.’”

“All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me – consciously or unconsciously. That’s to be expected.”

“The only card [Hillary Clinton] has is the woman’s card. She’s got nothing else to offer and frankly, if Hillary Clinton were a man, I don’t think she’d get 5 percent of the vote. The only thing she’s got going is the woman’s card, and the beautiful thing is, women don’t like her.”

Donald Trump disrespecting people of color:

“When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending the best. They’re not sending you, they’re sending people that have lots of problems and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists…”

“Our great African-American President hasn’t exactly had a positive impact on the thugs who are so happily and openly destroying Baltimore.”

Tenant Discrimination:

http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/07/30/1973-meet-donald-trump/?_r=0

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/08/28/us/politics/donald-trump-housing-race.html

Taking advantage of undocumented immigrants:

http://www.nytimes.com/1998/06/14/nyregion/after-15-years-in-court-workers-lawsuit-against-trump-faces-yet-another-delay.html?pagewanted=all

Disrespecting people with disabilities:

http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/11/26/donald-trump-mocks-reporter-with-disability-berman-sot-ac.cnn

You can try and pretend Donald Trump isn’t a hateful piece of trash, but the piles of evidence available show otherwise.  You can’t claim everything he’s said in his “illustrious” career are being taken out of context.  (Well I guess you can, but it won’t be very effective.)

“There’s a lot of false information and over dramatization of Trump out there.”

Not really… Nearly all of the articles or news reports I’ve provided show actual videos or quote him directly.  That’s not “over dramatization.”  It’s reality.  

“If you look at things at face value (not saying you do personally, just talking about the population as a whole) then you will despise Trump.”

And if you ignore all of his actions, direct quotes, and videos showing his hatefulness, then I guess you’ll love him? Why shouldn’t people take things at face value? If someone makes a bigoted comment (or in Trump’s case, continually makes bigoted, sexist comments), we shouldn’t have to read between the lines to find something good about them.  Especially when it comes to someone running for President of the United States!

“The average uneducated American citizen, who doesn’t care about politics or the election, walks around and sees the propaganda everywhere. It’s kind of creepy how much Hillary is in my daily life.”

Trump receives far more news coverage than Hillary.  So if Hillary is “creepy” because of the amount of news coverage she gets, then Trump should downright terrify you. But you seem to be eating the crap he’s feeding you like candy.  

“Trump’s campaign attracted 822 minutes of screen time on the nightly news broadcasts of ABC, CBS and NBC between Jan. 1 and Labor Day, according to the Tyndall Report, which has tracked broadcast news since 1987. It’s unlikely that another presidential candidate in history has ever gotten more, says Andrew Tyndall, the newsletter’s proprietor.

Clinton’s campaign commanded just 386 minutes, which includes 89 minutes spent on the investigation of her emails as secretary of state.

That’s a big coverage “gap.” Roughly speaking, Trump has gotten more than twice as much network attention as Clinton.”


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/16/upshot/measuring-donald-trumps-mammoth-advantage-in-free-media.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/style/trump-gets-way-more-tv-news-time-than-clinton-so-what/2016/09/21/719d1bac-7ea9-11e6-8d0c-fb6c00c90481_story.html

“I can’t remember the last time I seen something pro Trump besides a bumper sticker 2 weeks ago (and I live in the bible belt!).”

Then again… You’re simply not paying attention.  

http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/09/who-gets-better-press-coverage-hillary-clinton-or-donald-trump

http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/media-study-trump-helped-clinton-hurt-224300

“I pretty much had to go looking/digging for accurate information on him cause most “educational” resources obviously come from a liberal view.”

Ah yes. Anything negative about Trump must be because the mean old “Liberal media” has such a strong bias against him! (As opposed to him just being a disgusting bigot who should never have been taken seriously in the first place!)  What you’re telling me with that nonsense, is that no matter what negative information comes out about Trump, you’ll just ignore it and pretend it’s “Liberal bias” attempting to smear him. But, as I’ve shown, Trump has benefited far more from news coverage than Hillary has, so I’m not sure where you’re getting that there’s some “liberal media bias” targeted in Hillary’s favor.  If anything, it’s the exact opposite.  

“Hillary makes people feel protected and comfortable. I understand that. She makes a lot of promises. However, that security is an illusion. She has shown time and time again that she is flighty and does not have American citizen’s safety in mind.”

Hillary makes a lot of promises? That’s seriously what you’re going with?  All Trump has done is make promises! He has presented literally nothing regarding actions he’ll take or policy changes he’ll make to protect Americans.  Literally… Nothing… All he’s done is state he’d be willing to use nukes, won’t listen to the UN, won’t honor peace treaties unless he agrees with them, and has repeatedly stated that he’ll “Protect America” without showing how.  So I’m asking… How the hell do you think he’s going to protect America? By banning immigrants and refusing to help refugees? By putting innocent Muslim-Americans on a registration?

You do realize that the very few terrorist attacks that have been committed by foreigners were committed by people here legally, right? In fact, nearly all of the terrorist attacks committed here since 9/11 have been committed by U.S. citizens.  64% of which were by people who were born here.  All of this attention Trump and his bigot-brigade are focusing on immigrants is nothing but fear-mongering meant to get you all in an uproar. Nothing more.  

http://www.ibtimes.com/terrorism-attacks-911-have-involved-us-citizens-not-immigrants-despite-gop-debate-2228202

“She was very anti-gay then. What is to say her judgement won’t change again once she’s in office?”

Wrong again.  Hillary may have opposed gay marriage at one point and stated she believed in traditional marriage (as did so many others), but she has always been an advocate for the LGBT community aside from that issue, and not just for American LGBT people either.  

http://shewinswewin.org/blog/5-times-hillary-clinton-pushed-for-lgbt-rights/

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/lgbt-equality/

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2015/jun/17/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-change-position-same-sex-marriage/

http://correctrecord.org/hillary-clinton-making-human-rights-a-reality/

http://correctrecord.org/hillary-clinton-global-lgbt-advocate/

Hillary Clinton has been a global champion of human rights and has actually done things to make human rights (for everyone) a reality.  Can Donald Trump, who has frequently taken advantage of people for his own personal gain, say the same thing? The answer is a resounding no.  You are apparently judging people for claiming to believe in traditional marriage years ago, but Donald Trump does so now.  At least Hillary has come to see the error of her former stance. 

“If we want to gain full equality and acceptance we have to prove ourselves. I want the general public to accept me because I show dedication and love.”

People (including LGBT people) shouldn’t have to earn the right to be treated equally under the law.  We don’t have to earn our constitutional rights.  That’s not how our constitution is supposed to work.

“NOT because the government is forcing them too. It only creates more resistance.”

Wrong.  Segregation, slavery, institutionalized bigotry and discrimination, women’s right to vote, the right for people of color to vote.  ALL of those things had to be fought for and won, in spite of public opinion.  Public opinion didn’t shift until after the battles for equal treatment under the law were won.  

“Trump promises to protect LGBT”

Trump “promises” lots of things, but his actions speak far louder than his words.  His nomination of Mike Pence, a notorious homophobic bigot, shows that he couldn’t care any less about LGBT Americans.  You can pretend Mike Pence won’t have much power, but he’s Donald Trump’s right-hand man, and if something happens to Trump, Pence is next in line.  The Vice President also stands as one of the President’s most trusted advisors.  You’re truly an idiot if you think Pence’s homophobic beliefs will have no effect on Trump’s policy decisions.  

“…but most importantly he promises to protect all Americans.”

Again… Trump makes lots of promises.  But as I’ve stated, actions speak louder than words.  Trump has a history of taking advantage of the most vulnerable Americans.  He’s scammed people looking for a brighter future through education, he’s scammed people looking for homes, he’s scammed people he employed, and he’s scammed America as a whole with his numerous bankruptcies and unscrupulous business practices.  If you think he’ll be any different once he’s in the most powerful position in the country, then, again… You’re truly an idiot.  

“In a country where things are tense because of political/social/racial/etc differences I like that he talks to us on equal ground. He doesn’t look down on us.”

Are you joking? He’s shown multiple times that he doesn’t respect women, minorities, or middle-class Americans.  He doesn’t look down on you? Of course he looks down on you! He’s even called his own supporters morons who’d vote for him even if he murdered someone in the middle of a busy street! In case you don’t believe me, here’s the quote:

“I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, ok? It’s, like, incredible.”

This is a direct quote, and you’re proving him right!

“If we, and the politics, stop trying to make a point with our sexualties/genders the general public will stop caring as well. I don’t want to make a stance, I just want peace.”

It’s not the LGBT community that keeps bringing up our sexuality, it is those that would deny us equal rights under the law that are making it about our sexuality.  When they say “we won’t serve gay people in our businesses” when a lesbian couple wants to buy a cake for their wedding, it is the bigot behind the counter that has brought up our sexuality, not us.  When they attempt to pass laws that say we can’t get married, they are the ones who have brought up our sexuality, not us.  Us wanting to live our lives the way we want isn’t us making an issue of anything.  They’re the ones that have an issue, and that issue is that they just can’t seem to mind their own damned business.  We have a right to live in this society, we have a right to our pursuit of happiness, just like they do.  It’s as simple as that.  

“I’m voting Trump cause I truly believe it’s what is best for the lgbt community.”

Then you’re ignoring all of the evidence to the contrary and have imagined false promises that aren’t born out by his actions or statements.  

“If a big decision was made against the majority of the populations opinion they could lose their job, face prison, or even be murdered… The majority of politicians vote with the general consensus with an emphasis on what will help their family.”

As I’ve shown.  This is absolutely untrue.  Congress has an easily Googled history that shows the exact opposite (of which I’ve already given examples.)  In most cases they’ve had to be overruled by the Supreme Court.  

“I can guarantee a lot of these politicians know gay people (in the closet or no). Some possibly are in the closet themselves. Being that they try to keep scandals to a bare minimum, do you truly think they would be okay with homosexuality being a jail-able offense?”

Yeah… I do… Anti-gay bigots (whether or not they’re hiding in the closet) have shown time and time again that they’ll do anything to discriminate against the LGBT community.  If they can make it illegal for us to be ourselves, they will, and with Trump as President and a Republican-controlled Congress, it will be that much easier for them to do so.  

“Scratch that, do you think the United States population would be okay with homosexuality being a jail-able offense? No way.”

Maybe? They don’t really seem to be fighting to get all of those laws saying gay sex is illegal taken off of the record books that still exist.  They don’t seem to be fighting with us to end employment and housing discrimination.  They don’t seem to be fighting to end adoption discrimination.  Sure, there are some allies, but will a majority of the population fight for us?  It’s hard to tell.  I mean, look how many anti-gay marriage laws had to be thrown out by the Supreme Court.  There was one in pretty much every state! Remember, those laws were voted in by a majority of Americans less than 10 years ago.  

“Taking away rights after they are given is backwards in American values and is a sure way to cause paranoia.”

Tell that to the innocent Japanese Americans who were tossed into internment camps after Pearl Harbor.  

“I can see you got the comparison to Nazi Germany from the article you posted. I’ll have you know, that if you look to other sources, Trump didn’t suggest the database, a reporter did.”

And Trump said it would be a good idea.

“From what I’ve been gathering from the consensus of multiple sources, no one is quite sure what happened or what he exactly said.”

That is the spin Trump’s campaign tried to sell after he ran his mouth off again.  

“Some say the reporter didn’t clarify and Trump misjudged a question.”

Who says? Trump? His campaign? Again… That’s the spin he tried to sell after he realized how he looked when he made those comments.  Here’s the actual exchange (during which he had multiple chances to set the record straight.)  

Reporter: France declared this state of emergency where they closed the borders and they established some degree of warrantless searches. I know how you feel about the borders, but do you think there is some kind of state of emergency here, and do we need warrantless searches of Muslims?

Trump: We’re going to have to do certain things that were frankly unthinkable a year ago

Reporter: Do you think we might need to register Muslims in some type of database, or note their religion on their ID?

Trump: We’re going to have to look at a lot of things very closely. We’re going to have to look at the mosques. We’re going to have to look very, very carefully.

Reporter 2: Should there be a database or system that tracks Muslims in this country?

Trump: There should be a lot of systems, beyond databases. I mean, we should have a lot of systems.

Reporter 2: But that’s something your White House would like to implement.

Trump: I would certainly implement that. Absolutely

There was some minor confusion at that point as to whether Trump was talking about building his ridiculous wall, or whether he would institute a database, but the reporter reiterated that they were talking about the database, asking him again if a database would be a good idea and Trump stated: It would just be good management.

Then the reported asked, yet another time, if Muslims should be on a database…

Trump: They have to be — they have to be.  Let me just tell you: The key is people can come to the country, but they have to come legally.

Trump was asked not once…. Not twice… But a total of SIX TIMES if he would create a database of Muslim Americans, and he answered in the affirmative every… single… time… and only one out of the six times could be considered confusing.  All of the others were up-front, plainly spoken, and obvious.  

“We are working with a lot of he said/she said here. I would prefer to work and debate on something that has solid material to work from.”

Well, I’ve just given you the entire conversation. So what now? Are you still going to pretend he was just “confused”?  And even if he was actually confused after being asked a simple question six times… Do you really think someone so easily confused is qualified to be our President for Christ’s sake!? How in the hell do you think he’s going to function during serious negotiations with foreign leaders if he can’t even answer a simple, straightforward, question without getting confused?

“I’ve seen some of these links talk about Trump wanting to create a registry for people from Syria specifically. Is that a BAD thing?”

Nope.  He was clearly asked about Muslims, not Syrian refugees.  Besides that, refugees are already monitored, so it would make no sense, what-so-ever, to institute a second database when the information is already there.  

“I don’t find anything wrong with watching people coming from violent/war torn nations that we let into our country.”

Again… They already do monitor refugees.  They don’t just let them land rafts on the beach, march into the country, and go wherever they want to go.  It doesn’t work that way. 

“There’s a pattern of people coming from these places and committing violent crimes.”

Where are you getting that information?  I’d love to see some statistics showing that refugees have a pattern of violence.  

“I don’t know what you propose but SOMETHING has to change cause this process is causing a lot of death.”

In other countries? Maybe…. But not here.  As I’ve shown.  Nearly all of the terrorist attacks on American soil since 9/11 were committed by American citizens, 64% of which were born here.  (Source found above, from the first time I addressed the fear-mongering tactic.)  

“He isn’t advocating for “rounding up Mexicans and tossing them out”. He’s talking about deporting immigrants. Do you disagree with that?”

Yes, I absolutely do disagree with that.  Many of those HUMAN BEINGS came here as children, have been here for years and years, and have established lives in this country.  Did they come here illegally? Maybe? Do we want to be a country full of cold-hearted monsters who turn away people in need? You might want to, but I certainly don’t, and it’s definitely not the ideals that this country is supposed to harbor.  To quote from the Statue of Liberty:

“Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.  Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!”

We’re supposed to be the country that reaches out to those in need.  

“I’m obviously not as emotionally distressed over this as you are.”

You’re damned right I’m distressed.  As you should be; and if you cared even a little bit for others, you would be.  

“And I’m not naive. I just have a different opinion than you.”

No, you’re worse.  You’re willfully ignorant.  You see possible benefits (however small) to yourself, and ignore the pain a Trump presidency will cause to others and the danger it will present to the country (and the world). You ignore all of the atrocious things Donald Trump has said and done and take in his propaganda like it’s candy.  Hillary Clinton wasn’t my first choice for President (Bernie supporter here).  I’ll readily admit that… But she is far…. FAR better than that egotistical, bigoted, homophobic, misogynistic, hate-mongering, scam-artist that is Donald Trump.  The fact that you can’t see that (or even worse, ignore it, don’t care, or genuinely agree) paints a terrible…. TERRIBLE picture of you.  Just like it does for every other Trump supporter in this country.   

Trump vs. Hitler:

One last thing I’d like to address, which you scoffed at, is the idea that Trump is comparable to Hitler.  Yes, this gets thrown around a lot regarding politicians, and it’s usually uncalled for, but in this instance, the similarities are truly scary.  Germany was in terrible condition economically when Hitler rose to power, and America isn’t, but they’re both using the same rhetoric. Hitler promised to “make Germany great again” and he  used fear and  an irrational sense of nationalist pride to get people to turn against a common “enemy.”   According to him the cause of all of Germany’s problems was the Jews.  His solution was to register them, get rid of them, and cut Germany  off from the rest of the world as if they were some sort of villain.

Trump is using the exact same rhetoric.  His slogan is “Make America great again!” and according to Trump, the way to do that is to get rid of all the Muslims and other immigrants that are “pulling us down.” He’s claimed that our relationships with other countries are holding us down, he’s proposed to literally build a wall between us and another neighbor, and he’s stated he won’t honor treaties with other countries.  

Trump might not be even nearly as bad as Hitler was… Yet (and that is a strong yet…) but there are definite signs that history could repeat itself if we allow it.  I for one, don’t want our country to take even one step down that road.  Hitler didn’t start out as the powerful, fascist, dictator that he ended up as.  He didn’t start out promising to murder millions of people.  It was the people that he convinced to follow him, using fear and pride, that took Germany there, and I refuse to simply sit back and ignore all of the signs and do nothing as Donald Trump and his followers take us down that same road.  

A holocaust survivor on Trump vs. Hitler:

http://www.thewrap.com/are-hitler-trump-comparisons-fair-a-holocaust-survivor-tells-his-son/

A well written article on the Trump / Hitler comparison:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/28/donald-trump-rhetoric-adolf-hitler-anti-trump-campaign

An “interesting” quiz.  Can you pick which fascist made the statement:

http://interactive.nydailynews.com/2016/03/quiz-who-said-it-trump-hitler-mussolini-stalin/

 

James Garcia 9/28/2016

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